As my church’s Communications Director, I have [I think] the very cool and unique privilege of being on the Creative Team that develops our message series’. We’ve shied away from using blatant rip-offs of movies and TV show titles and themes in our effort to be “culturally relevant.” Instead, we’ve opted to create our own custom series branding.

That’s not to say we would “never” play off of a popular TV show or movie. We’re actually considering the possibility of it now for an upcoming series … for inspiration (as you said). But I think we would agree that merely taking a recognizable “secular” brand and repackaging it for our “Christian” uses certainly cheapens our message to some degree. I say, “C’mon, people. We’re better than that.”

Good thoughts.

As my church’s Communications Director, I have [I think] the very cool and unique privilege of being on the Creative Team that develops our message series’. We’ve shied away from using blatant rip-offs of movies and TV show titles and themes in our effort to be “culturally relevant.” Instead, we’ve opted to create our own custom series branding.

That’s not to say we would “never” play off of a popular TV show or movie. We’re actually considering the possibility of it now for an upcoming series … for inspiration (as you said). But I think we would agree that merely taking a recognizable “secular” brand and repackaging it for our “Christian” uses certainly cheapens our message to some degree. I say, “C’mon, people. We’re better than that.”

Good thoughts.

Right on. There are certainly times when spinning pop culture, or doing a parody are spot on the best solutions. I think it all comes down to the reasoning behind it.

What’s funny, in a sad way, is that when we copy because we are actually too lazy to be creative but hide behind being ‘culturally relevant’, we end up being the exact opposite and just show that we are out of touch.

Thanks for adding to the conversation!

Right on. There are certainly times when spinning pop culture, or doing a parody are spot on the best solutions. I think it all comes down to the reasoning behind it.

What’s funny, in a sad way, is that when we copy because we are actually too lazy to be creative but hide behind being ‘culturally relevant’, we end up being the exact opposite and just show that we are out of touch.

Thanks for adding to the conversation!

this is a great point, one that I hadn’t considered.
My question will always remain…why do we need to use any theme at all?

We have the greatest story of all time at our finger tips…why do we need to springboard off of “Pulp Fiction” to make a point?

this is a great point, one that I hadn’t considered.
My question will always remain…why do we need to use any theme at all?

We have the greatest story of all time at our finger tips…why do we need to springboard off of “Pulp Fiction” to make a point?

I have a question for the poster;
You said that you did a series based on the Simpsons. Now, excluding the question of how much you borrowed or didn’t borrow from them, my question would be why? Why use the Simpsons?

If the people being preached to are Christians, then using something that glorifies sin like the Simpsons would seem to be hypocritical as you mentioned.
If the people being preached to are non-Christians then I would ask the same thing; why? Non-Christians need the gospel, pure and simple.

The issue with non-Christians is that we believe, deep down, that the word is just not good enough to convert the human soul without our help; our “cool delivery” or our “enjoyable concert” to loosen the potential convert up. We believe that just simply explaining the gospel to a human won’t cut it when the bible states that this is the ONLY way a human gets converted.

I have a question for the poster;
You said that you did a series based on the Simpsons. Now, excluding the question of how much you borrowed or didn’t borrow from them, my question would be why? Why use the Simpsons?

If the people being preached to are Christians, then using something that glorifies sin like the Simpsons would seem to be hypocritical as you mentioned.
If the people being preached to are non-Christians then I would ask the same thing; why? Non-Christians need the gospel, pure and simple.

The issue with non-Christians is that we believe, deep down, that the word is just not good enough to convert the human soul without our help; our “cool delivery” or our “enjoyable concert” to loosen the potential convert up. We believe that just simply explaining the gospel to a human won’t cut it when the bible states that this is the ONLY way a human gets converted.

I love seeing the comments!

The Simpson series was effective because 1. It was a parody 2. The audience was a very different crowd, this was for an on campus college ministry. This is a ministry, and a pastor, that meets the students where they are. I posted the idea to show that I don’t think it is NEVER the right choice to spin pop culture, it should just be done rarely and done correctly.

Christ himself have ALWAYS used parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. God made us creative so that we can bring the gospel to them just as Christ did, in a way that they can grab hold of.

I do agree with you Robert, the delivery should never out stage the message. Our delivery should exist to help in the the way the message is received.

I love seeing the comments!

The Simpson series was effective because 1. It was a parody 2. The audience was a very different crowd, this was for an on campus college ministry. This is a ministry, and a pastor, that meets the students where they are. I posted the idea to show that I don’t think it is NEVER the right choice to spin pop culture, it should just be done rarely and done correctly.

Christ himself have ALWAYS used parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. God made us creative so that we can bring the gospel to them just as Christ did, in a way that they can grab hold of.

I do agree with you Robert, the delivery should never out stage the message. Our delivery should exist to help in the the way the message is received.

Yikes, HOLYCOW!

Christ did NOT use parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. Just the opposite.

Matthew 13:10-17 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

God created the WHOLE universe!! He created you and me and the little fishies in the ocean! The Holy Spirit lives in all who believe unto salvation…..can’t we tap into this creative supply without using the ‘culture’? After all, it would seem that those who are desperate for Christ would probably be pretty fed up with the culture of today, anyways!

Yikes, HOLYCOW!

Christ did NOT use parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. Just the opposite.

Matthew 13:10-17 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

God created the WHOLE universe!! He created you and me and the little fishies in the ocean! The Holy Spirit lives in all who believe unto salvation…..can’t we tap into this creative supply without using the ‘culture’? After all, it would seem that those who are desperate for Christ would probably be pretty fed up with the culture of today, anyways!

Holycow,
I was asking why you think that we should use sinful things of the world to get the gospel across, not that we should use them sparingly!

I was going to reply to your post but Colleen not only beat me to it but said it better than I could have.

Again, just why do you think that using sinful worldly TV shows or movies or whatever is necessary to get the gospel message across?

Could it be because we think that the gospel itself, unadorned has no power on it’s own? That if you were to stand up in front of 400 college students and tell them the following:
1.) You are a sinner. You’ve broken God’s laws many thousands of times
2.) A punishment will exacted because of this.
3.) You deserve to be punished, and God owes you nothing.
3.) But God, amazingly merciful as He is, made a way for you to be saved from this punishment. He substituted His own son; Jesus Christ to be punished in your place, nailed to a cross, and to take the brunt of God’s wrath that was yours to take.
4.) After 3 days; Christ resurrected to life and now sits at the right hand of God.
5.) He did this not because you are worthy of it, or that He saw something good in you. He did it to show His amazing mercy and grace.
5.) He now commands you to repent of your sins, turn away from them and to put your hope for eternal life in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You have no other hope; it’s found only in this.

that we’d be afraid that the whole auditorium would empty out and nobody would be left?

That’s entirely possible. But it’s in God’s hands anyway. We are just to tell the truth.

I can see of no other reason to “use pop culture” when trying to get the gospel message across. If we have to define some of the words…so be it…but using the Simpson’s? nah…

Holycow,
I was asking why you think that we should use sinful things of the world to get the gospel across, not that we should use them sparingly!

I was going to reply to your post but Colleen not only beat me to it but said it better than I could have.

Again, just why do you think that using sinful worldly TV shows or movies or whatever is necessary to get the gospel message across?

Could it be because we think that the gospel itself, unadorned has no power on it’s own? That if you were to stand up in front of 400 college students and tell them the following:
1.) You are a sinner. You’ve broken God’s laws many thousands of times
2.) A punishment will exacted because of this.
3.) You deserve to be punished, and God owes you nothing.
3.) But God, amazingly merciful as He is, made a way for you to be saved from this punishment. He substituted His own son; Jesus Christ to be punished in your place, nailed to a cross, and to take the brunt of God’s wrath that was yours to take.
4.) After 3 days; Christ resurrected to life and now sits at the right hand of God.
5.) He did this not because you are worthy of it, or that He saw something good in you. He did it to show His amazing mercy and grace.
5.) He now commands you to repent of your sins, turn away from them and to put your hope for eternal life in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You have no other hope; it’s found only in this.

that we’d be afraid that the whole auditorium would empty out and nobody would be left?

That’s entirely possible. But it’s in God’s hands anyway. We are just to tell the truth.

I can see of no other reason to “use pop culture” when trying to get the gospel message across. If we have to define some of the words…so be it…but using the Simpson’s? nah…

One other thing concerning ‘stealing from sinners’ in regards to using the ‘culture’ for sermons, etc…

If you go into any high school today you will see that there is not one culture. There are goth, preps, boys who wear girl pants, girls who wear boy clothes, less popular, more popular, disenfranchised, those who have it all, and the list could go on and on.

There are kids who think the Simpson’s inane and worthless and others who wouldn’t miss an episode! Some kids like rock, others rap, and others who actually enjoy opera!

So….if one wanted to reach these young people “where they are” then you need only go to the one thing they all have in common. They are sinners in need of a Savior.

You don’t need slick marketing or stolen cultural gimmicks to tell someone that Jesus loves them regardless of where they are!

One other thing concerning ‘stealing from sinners’ in regards to using the ‘culture’ for sermons, etc…

If you go into any high school today you will see that there is not one culture. There are goth, preps, boys who wear girl pants, girls who wear boy clothes, less popular, more popular, disenfranchised, those who have it all, and the list could go on and on.

There are kids who think the Simpson’s inane and worthless and others who wouldn’t miss an episode! Some kids like rock, others rap, and others who actually enjoy opera!

So….if one wanted to reach these young people “where they are” then you need only go to the one thing they all have in common. They are sinners in need of a Savior.

You don’t need slick marketing or stolen cultural gimmicks to tell someone that Jesus loves them regardless of where they are!

Colleen,
You are really bringing up some very good points; if you don’t mind, I’m going to “steal” from both posts for any future conversations of this type.

bob

Colleen,
You are really bringing up some very good points; if you don’t mind, I’m going to “steal” from both posts for any future conversations of this type.

bob

“Come with me and we will preach to the sinners and show them the truth ” That would be a translation of “Follow me and I will make you fisher’s of men.”

Christ showed us how to speak so that people could understand (even though sadly many would hear and not believe). Christ absolutely spoke in parables:

“With many such parables he spoke the word to them as they were able to understand it. Without parables he did not speak to them, but to his own disciples he explained everything in private.” Mark 4:33-34

We love to preach sin and hell and while Christ certainly spoke of those things He reach people not by pointing out how desperate they are but by how much He loved them.

Of course I’m probably a bit more liberal than you, I wouldn’t consider a college student watching an episode of the Simpson’s a sin.

Very interesting, if very different, points of view.

“Come with me and we will preach to the sinners and show them the truth ” That would be a translation of “Follow me and I will make you fisher’s of men.”

Christ showed us how to speak so that people could understand (even though sadly many would hear and not believe). Christ absolutely spoke in parables:

“With many such parables he spoke the word to them as they were able to understand it. Without parables he did not speak to them, but to his own disciples he explained everything in private.” Mark 4:33-34

We love to preach sin and hell and while Christ certainly spoke of those things He reach people not by pointing out how desperate they are but by how much He loved them.

Of course I’m probably a bit more liberal than you, I wouldn’t consider a college student watching an episode of the Simpson’s a sin.

Very interesting, if very different, points of view.

Holycow,

I noticed that you didn’t directly interact with the points of our posts…you spoke past us and brought up new points while dodging previously made points.

You made an assertion:
“Christ himself have ALWAYS used parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. God made us creative so that we can bring the gospel to them just as Christ did, in a way that they can grab hold of.”

Colleen pointed out that you were mistaken in your understanding of why Christ used parables…therefore it did NOT support your assertion that using the culture is based on a biblical teaching.

Please interact directly with this point and let’s not go down a rabbit trail just yet…let’s take this slowly and one point at a time…

What do you say?

Holycow,

I noticed that you didn’t directly interact with the points of our posts…you spoke past us and brought up new points while dodging previously made points.

You made an assertion:
“Christ himself have ALWAYS used parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. God made us creative so that we can bring the gospel to them just as Christ did, in a way that they can grab hold of.”

Colleen pointed out that you were mistaken in your understanding of why Christ used parables…therefore it did NOT support your assertion that using the culture is based on a biblical teaching.

Please interact directly with this point and let’s not go down a rabbit trail just yet…let’s take this slowly and one point at a time…

What do you say?

I didn’t go point by point because this is a conversation, not an argument. We’re on the same side.

Sounds like you don’t think I addressed your opinion, I actually think I did but just in case…the point was made:

“Christ did NOT use parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. Just the opposite.”

And that simply isn’t true. Directly from scripture we can learn that:

1. Christ spoke to unbelievers in parables
2. Christ spoke to unbeliever in parables so that they could understand

I didn’t say it, Mark said it.

The other point you made, “I was asking why you think that we should use sinful things of the world to get the gospel across” is simply putting words in my mouth. I don’t consider watching the Simpson’s to be an act of sin, maybe you do and that’s okay but I never said we should use sinful things to get the gospel across.

Let’s have the conversation, but let’s not attack…we are on the same team.

I didn’t go point by point because this is a conversation, not an argument. We’re on the same side.

Sounds like you don’t think I addressed your opinion, I actually think I did but just in case…the point was made:

“Christ did NOT use parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. Just the opposite.”

And that simply isn’t true. Directly from scripture we can learn that:

1. Christ spoke to unbelievers in parables
2. Christ spoke to unbeliever in parables so that they could understand

I didn’t say it, Mark said it.

The other point you made, “I was asking why you think that we should use sinful things of the world to get the gospel across” is simply putting words in my mouth. I don’t consider watching the Simpson’s to be an act of sin, maybe you do and that’s okay but I never said we should use sinful things to get the gospel across.

Let’s have the conversation, but let’s not attack…we are on the same team.

Holycow…
Again, you misread what I said. Please read my last post slowly and reply to Colleen’s point.

And I agree, this is a conversation but that doesn’t mean we just talk past each other to hear ourselves talk…we communicate right? That entails making our thoughts understood by the other person and INTERACTING with each others ideas.

I’ll cut/paste that question again.

You made an assertion:
“Christ himself have ALWAYS used parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. God made us creative so that we can bring the gospel to them just as Christ did, in a way that they can grab hold of.”

Colleen pointed out that you were mistaken in your understanding of why Christ used parables…HE DID IT TO HIDE THE TRUTH, NOT EXPOSE IT…therefore it did NOT support your assertion that using the culture is based on a biblical teaching.

Please interact directly with this point and let’s not go down a rabbit trail just yet…let’s take this slowly and one point at a time…

What do you say?

Holycow…
Again, you misread what I said. Please read my last post slowly and reply to Colleen’s point.

And I agree, this is a conversation but that doesn’t mean we just talk past each other to hear ourselves talk…we communicate right? That entails making our thoughts understood by the other person and INTERACTING with each others ideas.

I’ll cut/paste that question again.

You made an assertion:
“Christ himself have ALWAYS used parables when teaching the truth to unbelievers. God made us creative so that we can bring the gospel to them just as Christ did, in a way that they can grab hold of.”

Colleen pointed out that you were mistaken in your understanding of why Christ used parables…HE DID IT TO HIDE THE TRUTH, NOT EXPOSE IT…therefore it did NOT support your assertion that using the culture is based on a biblical teaching.

Please interact directly with this point and let’s not go down a rabbit trail just yet…let’s take this slowly and one point at a time…

What do you say?

Holycow, If you read the whole of Mark chapter 4 you will see that Jesus said, “so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!” in regards to why He spoke in parables. (vs.12)

Later on in the chapter, the part you quoted, we see that Jesus had to privately explain the parables to His disciples…Why? Because the message was for the believer even though Christ put it out there publically. They were difficult to understand and taught great doctrinal truths.

Do the “Desperate Housewives” ripoffs you mentioned in your blog ever teach deep truths concerning marriage. Like how the relationship between Christ and the believers(His bride) is the mystery that was revealed through marriage? Do these ripoffs teach that a woman is to submit to her husband?? That he is the head of the family?

And, I haven’t actually ever made the assertion that watching the Simpsons is sin. I merely stated that by using the Simpsons (popular culture) you may be alienating those that Christ is trying to reach at that exact moment. Perhaps there are some who’s soil is fertile and ready for the seed….but they are turned off by a show they see as shallow and stupid.

All those kids in the audience have one thing in common, and it is not necessarily ‘popular culture’ (as defined by whichever pastor is preaching to them). The one thing in common, if you really want to “reach them where they are”, is that they are sinners in need of a Savior.

(As an aside, the Simpson’s aren’t popular because Marge and Homer love each other and have an intact marriage between one man and one woman. It is not popular because their children, at the end of the day, love the parents and are loved by their parents. It is not popular because of the small town feel where everyone knows one another and everything usually works out in the end. Though those things are true. It is popular because of the raunchy humor and disrespect the characters show for one another throughout. It is popular because of the drunkeness and lewdness and sometimes taudry behavior. Not exactly character qualities you want to promote in a new believer. And it is not something you would want to encourage them to put in their minds. Which is exactly what you are doing when you imitate their characters.)

Restudy the parables and see how difficult they are. Re-read them and see if they aren’t more difficult, deeper and much more contraversial than the fluff being stolen from today’s ‘popular’ culture.

Holycow, If you read the whole of Mark chapter 4 you will see that Jesus said, “so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!” in regards to why He spoke in parables. (vs.12)

Later on in the chapter, the part you quoted, we see that Jesus had to privately explain the parables to His disciples…Why? Because the message was for the believer even though Christ put it out there publically. They were difficult to understand and taught great doctrinal truths.

Do the “Desperate Housewives” ripoffs you mentioned in your blog ever teach deep truths concerning marriage. Like how the relationship between Christ and the believers(His bride) is the mystery that was revealed through marriage? Do these ripoffs teach that a woman is to submit to her husband?? That he is the head of the family?

And, I haven’t actually ever made the assertion that watching the Simpsons is sin. I merely stated that by using the Simpsons (popular culture) you may be alienating those that Christ is trying to reach at that exact moment. Perhaps there are some who’s soil is fertile and ready for the seed….but they are turned off by a show they see as shallow and stupid.

All those kids in the audience have one thing in common, and it is not necessarily ‘popular culture’ (as defined by whichever pastor is preaching to them). The one thing in common, if you really want to “reach them where they are”, is that they are sinners in need of a Savior.

(As an aside, the Simpson’s aren’t popular because Marge and Homer love each other and have an intact marriage between one man and one woman. It is not popular because their children, at the end of the day, love the parents and are loved by their parents. It is not popular because of the small town feel where everyone knows one another and everything usually works out in the end. Though those things are true. It is popular because of the raunchy humor and disrespect the characters show for one another throughout. It is popular because of the drunkeness and lewdness and sometimes taudry behavior. Not exactly character qualities you want to promote in a new believer. And it is not something you would want to encourage them to put in their minds. Which is exactly what you are doing when you imitate their characters.)

Restudy the parables and see how difficult they are. Re-read them and see if they aren’t more difficult, deeper and much more contraversial than the fluff being stolen from today’s ‘popular’ culture.

You are absolutely right Colleen, we can put together the greatest graphics, the big promotions, etc. but if there lacks substance, if scripture and Christ are not the foundation of what is being taught, if there are no lives changed then it is all for nothing.

Church marketing doesn’t work for everyone, I  know that some even hate church marketing. I don’t believe one size fits all, and that’s ok. In the end though the truth of Christ must be preached because without that we are dead. We may not see eye to eye in the methods, but in that we agree.

I also agree that as a whole, I am not a fan of pop culture rip offs either.

You are absolutely right Colleen, we can put together the greatest graphics, the big promotions, etc. but if there lacks substance, if scripture and Christ are not the foundation of what is being taught, if there are no lives changed then it is all for nothing.

Church marketing doesn’t work for everyone, I  know that some even hate church marketing. I don’t believe one size fits all, and that’s ok. In the end though the truth of Christ must be preached because without that we are dead. We may not see eye to eye in the methods, but in that we agree.

I also agree that as a whole, I am not a fan of pop culture rip offs either.

Holycow,
If I read correctly, you and Colleen are not in agreement.
Colleen’s point is that the ONLY thing that any human has in common with another human is that we’re all condemned sinners who need a savior. She didn’t say that she differed in “method preference” with you; she said that referencing culture is a mistake on several levels.

Holycow,
If I read correctly, you and Colleen are not in agreement.
Colleen’s point is that the ONLY thing that any human has in common with another human is that we’re all condemned sinners who need a savior. She didn’t say that she differed in “method preference” with you; she said that referencing culture is a mistake on several levels.

Yikes… I know this is poking a hornets nest with a stick…but that’s what I do. It appears that this discussion (argument) is about methods. It is just as much a “method” to lead someone throught the “way of the master” or the “Romans Road” or even a “point by point presentation of the Gospel” as it is to use cultural reference to illustrate the good news.(Which is what the parables were) The disciples who we accept as “believers” listening to the parables didn’t pray a prayer, respond to a presentation of the “gospel” or walk down an isle…they merely responded to Jesus’ call to “Follow Me”.

Maybe what would be most useful to the kingdom would be to love our neighbors enough pray that any method…even if it is not our personal preference…would bear fruit, and trust Jesus to seperate the “tares” from the “wheat” in the judgement.

Yikes… I know this is poking a hornets nest with a stick…but that’s what I do. It appears that this discussion (argument) is about methods. It is just as much a “method” to lead someone throught the “way of the master” or the “Romans Road” or even a “point by point presentation of the Gospel” as it is to use cultural reference to illustrate the good news.(Which is what the parables were) The disciples who we accept as “believers” listening to the parables didn’t pray a prayer, respond to a presentation of the “gospel” or walk down an isle…they merely responded to Jesus’ call to “Follow Me”.

Maybe what would be most useful to the kingdom would be to love our neighbors enough pray that any method…even if it is not our personal preference…would bear fruit, and trust Jesus to seperate the “tares” from the “wheat” in the judgement.

Don,
Respectfully, this isn’t a method discussion.
The question is: Why would anyone believe that they have to mix a worldly element such as a popular TV show that gratifies lewd behavior, raunchy dialog,and things generally not pointing in the direction of holiness, to explain the gospel message?

That’s the question?

Why would a pastor think that’s necessary?

Is the gospel that powerless that we have to have the Simpsons version?

Don,
Respectfully, this isn’t a method discussion.
The question is: Why would anyone believe that they have to mix a worldly element such as a popular TV show that gratifies lewd behavior, raunchy dialog,and things generally not pointing in the direction of holiness, to explain the gospel message?

That’s the question?

Why would a pastor think that’s necessary?

Is the gospel that powerless that we have to have the Simpsons version?

Don,
Another thought just occurred to me concerning methods such as Way of the Master.

All that the WOTM is is asking questions. that’s it. No gimmicks, no TV shows…just asking about sin…

I’d say that that barely qualifies as a method.

But again…let’s not get sidetracked…we are asking why something like the Simpsons is necessary.

Don,
Another thought just occurred to me concerning methods such as Way of the Master.

All that the WOTM is is asking questions. that’s it. No gimmicks, no TV shows…just asking about sin…

I’d say that that barely qualifies as a method.

But again…let’s not get sidetracked…we are asking why something like the Simpsons is necessary.

Why would Jesus use a “wicked judge” to explain prayer? Why would Jesus use a “greedy” man who found a treasure in a field and purchased the field without notifying it’s owners to explain the kingdom? Why would Jesus use a man who embezzled money from his master as an example of shrewd (but sinful) behavior…? Because Jesus used examples and methods, just as you and I both do today. I can imagine that the pharisees were “righteously incensed” at Jesus for using such worldly references in his preaching. If we were to go back a little further in time- Why would a prophet cook his meals over a dung fire…marry a prostitute…walk around naked??? Because God has entrusted the treasures of his kingdom to men such as you and I. Our job is to love our fellow man enough to communicate his truths to using whatever abilities and methods available. We will be judged…no doubt…but that is Gods gig.

Why would Jesus use a “wicked judge” to explain prayer? Why would Jesus use a “greedy” man who found a treasure in a field and purchased the field without notifying it’s owners to explain the kingdom? Why would Jesus use a man who embezzled money from his master as an example of shrewd (but sinful) behavior…? Because Jesus used examples and methods, just as you and I both do today. I can imagine that the pharisees were “righteously incensed” at Jesus for using such worldly references in his preaching. If we were to go back a little further in time- Why would a prophet cook his meals over a dung fire…marry a prostitute…walk around naked??? Because God has entrusted the treasures of his kingdom to men such as you and I. Our job is to love our fellow man enough to communicate his truths to using whatever abilities and methods available. We will be judged…no doubt…but that is Gods gig.

Don, Jesus was clear in stating that the judge was “wicked” in your example. I am afraid that in today’s marketed churches they do not label things as “wicked” or “holy”.

The original article was about stealing from the popular culture to reach the world for Jesus. But….these churches/pastors are not simply holding the popular culture icons up and declaring the fruit of them wicked. Rather they are IMITATING them. They use them to cause laughter and cameraderie and to build repore. (no clue how to spell that last word!)

Jesus dined with the sinners, He hung out with them. But, He never imitated them. Those with whom He interacted either became like Him or they hated Him. That is so different from what we see in today’s Christian circles. What we see are people proclaiming to be Christians (Christ-like) but then imitating the world around them and saying, “See, Christianity can be cool! Look at us, we look and act and dress and boogey just like you!”

As far as the prophets doing the things they did… I do not believe there is any proof whatsoever in Scripture that gives us a license to imitate what the prophets did under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If a man of God today can pour water all over a slab of steak and then catch it on fire through prayer, I may reconsider…but until then, I put it in the catagory that it happened once for a singular purpose and time. We are also told that Scripture is sufficient for teaching, correcting, etc…

OH, and how in the WORLD can you say that quoting from Scripture in a memorable form like “Romans Road” is comparable to quoting from popular culture icons in a comical, approving way??

I am sorry…I don’t pray that any method would be used to reach the world. I pray that godly men and women would stand up and say, “ENOUGH OF THIS GOD-HATING CULTURAL GARBAGE! WE KNOW NOTHING MORE THAN TO PREACH THE GOSPEL!” And then have them present the gospel by saying ‘only destruction comes from imitating the world. Jesus loves you and wants to save you from it!’

I pray that more Christians would forsake the popular clothing trends and hairstyles and nicest cars and biggest houses and help others escape those bondages also. I pray the churches are a safe haven sanctuary from the ‘popular culture’. I pray that they are a place where people can be transparent in their weaknesses and be loved and learn to be obedient to the Word of God….even if they aren’t ‘cool’ to the rest of the world.

Lord, that we could get off of this endless Merry~Go~Round of worldly deceit!.

(and no I am not saying we should all dress like we are from the 1820′s. Rather, I am talking about considering what God thinks about our clothing/makeup choices ahead of what everyone else is doing….or even what *I* want to dress/look like. And those are things that are personal to each individual as he draws closer to God.)

Don, Jesus was clear in stating that the judge was “wicked” in your example. I am afraid that in today’s marketed churches they do not label things as “wicked” or “holy”.

The original article was about stealing from the popular culture to reach the world for Jesus. But….these churches/pastors are not simply holding the popular culture icons up and declaring the fruit of them wicked. Rather they are IMITATING them. They use them to cause laughter and cameraderie and to build repore. (no clue how to spell that last word!)

Jesus dined with the sinners, He hung out with them. But, He never imitated them. Those with whom He interacted either became like Him or they hated Him. That is so different from what we see in today’s Christian circles. What we see are people proclaiming to be Christians (Christ-like) but then imitating the world around them and saying, “See, Christianity can be cool! Look at us, we look and act and dress and boogey just like you!”

As far as the prophets doing the things they did… I do not believe there is any proof whatsoever in Scripture that gives us a license to imitate what the prophets did under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If a man of God today can pour water all over a slab of steak and then catch it on fire through prayer, I may reconsider…but until then, I put it in the catagory that it happened once for a singular purpose and time. We are also told that Scripture is sufficient for teaching, correcting, etc…

OH, and how in the WORLD can you say that quoting from Scripture in a memorable form like “Romans Road” is comparable to quoting from popular culture icons in a comical, approving way??

I am sorry…I don’t pray that any method would be used to reach the world. I pray that godly men and women would stand up and say, “ENOUGH OF THIS GOD-HATING CULTURAL GARBAGE! WE KNOW NOTHING MORE THAN TO PREACH THE GOSPEL!” And then have them present the gospel by saying ‘only destruction comes from imitating the world. Jesus loves you and wants to save you from it!’

I pray that more Christians would forsake the popular clothing trends and hairstyles and nicest cars and biggest houses and help others escape those bondages also. I pray the churches are a safe haven sanctuary from the ‘popular culture’. I pray that they are a place where people can be transparent in their weaknesses and be loved and learn to be obedient to the Word of God….even if they aren’t ‘cool’ to the rest of the world.

Lord, that we could get off of this endless Merry~Go~Round of worldly deceit!.

(and no I am not saying we should all dress like we are from the 1820′s. Rather, I am talking about considering what God thinks about our clothing/makeup choices ahead of what everyone else is doing….or even what *I* want to dress/look like. And those are things that are personal to each individual as he draws closer to God.)

Everyone,
Again, Colleen brings it back to the central issue and asks the same question for the 100th time…

Is there a DIRECT INTERACTION with this question/idea or is this thread done?

have a good day and thanks for the discussion.

Everyone,
Again, Colleen brings it back to the central issue and asks the same question for the 100th time…

Is there a DIRECT INTERACTION with this question/idea or is this thread done?

have a good day and thanks for the discussion.

Robert, I do worry about the direction of ‘christianity’ today. The people of like mind with this sort of thinking is growing and I fear becoming the majority.

They like to appear to be non-confrontational. They like to say that God will judge, not us, the methods and manners. They like to say that the MOST important thing is seeing people saved.

Then you get a high-gloss flier in the mail inviting you to their churches. There they feel free to call (judge) our music boring and droning. They say (judge) that our sermons are dry and dusty and no longer relevant. Thereby judging us and denigrating us and confronting us in a very back-handed manner.

I don’t understand this.

Methods do matter. They speak to who you are and Who you trust when you market. They also convert people to the marketed object. Or….they are bait and switch techniques with the person not getting what they assumed they were buying.

Jesus is cool! Jesus is my homeboy! Jesus will heal your relationships. Jesus will _______!

Tell that to the Christians in Afghanistan who, when asked, think that there MIGHT be 10 fellow Afghani Christians in all of their country because there is NO way they can contact one another for fear of death or beatings or being homeless. Tell that to the sudanese women who answered the soldiers’ question of “Are you Christian or Muslim?”, by proclaiming they were Christian. The soldiers answered them back by gang raping them, cutting off their breasts then killing them.

In some countries having Jesus as your ‘homeboy’ means having EVERY relationship destroyed. It means losing everything, possibly your life.

American Christianity is an anomoly. It is also a HUGE blessing. One of which I am so happy to be a part of. But, I do remember we are enemies of the world’s ruler. We are in his cross-hairs, even when we are sitting pretty in our comfortable chairs, listening to relevant sermons, and swaying to the beat of popular ‘christian’ rock.

Market THAT truth.

Robert, I do worry about the direction of ‘christianity’ today. The people of like mind with this sort of thinking is growing and I fear becoming the majority.

They like to appear to be non-confrontational. They like to say that God will judge, not us, the methods and manners. They like to say that the MOST important thing is seeing people saved.

Then you get a high-gloss flier in the mail inviting you to their churches. There they feel free to call (judge) our music boring and droning. They say (judge) that our sermons are dry and dusty and no longer relevant. Thereby judging us and denigrating us and confronting us in a very back-handed manner.

I don’t understand this.

Methods do matter. They speak to who you are and Who you trust when you market. They also convert people to the marketed object. Or….they are bait and switch techniques with the person not getting what they assumed they were buying.

Jesus is cool! Jesus is my homeboy! Jesus will heal your relationships. Jesus will _______!

Tell that to the Christians in Afghanistan who, when asked, think that there MIGHT be 10 fellow Afghani Christians in all of their country because there is NO way they can contact one another for fear of death or beatings or being homeless. Tell that to the sudanese women who answered the soldiers’ question of “Are you Christian or Muslim?”, by proclaiming they were Christian. The soldiers answered them back by gang raping them, cutting off their breasts then killing them.

In some countries having Jesus as your ‘homeboy’ means having EVERY relationship destroyed. It means losing everything, possibly your life.

American Christianity is an anomoly. It is also a HUGE blessing. One of which I am so happy to be a part of. But, I do remember we are enemies of the world’s ruler. We are in his cross-hairs, even when we are sitting pretty in our comfortable chairs, listening to relevant sermons, and swaying to the beat of popular ‘christian’ rock.

Market THAT truth.

Colleen,
I don’t believe the “point” of Jesus using the “wicked judge” was to point out the sin of the judge…his point was about prayer. He used something worldly, (wicked judges)that people of the day understood and talked about(culture) to make a spiritual point. He spoke to them using images they could identify with. He didn’t stay in the “sanctuary” of the synagogue…he spoke from unconventional places like boats and mountainsides. He dared to enter the world that the religious people of the day separated themselves from..and remain pure. He hung out with sinners, but didn’t imitate their lifestyle, he was an trend setter- not a trend follower,…I think he was very cool. That is why sinners flocked to Jesus…and pharisees hated him.

Thanks for the conversation. Be Blessed.

Colleen,
I don’t believe the “point” of Jesus using the “wicked judge” was to point out the sin of the judge…his point was about prayer. He used something worldly, (wicked judges)that people of the day understood and talked about(culture) to make a spiritual point. He spoke to them using images they could identify with. He didn’t stay in the “sanctuary” of the synagogue…he spoke from unconventional places like boats and mountainsides. He dared to enter the world that the religious people of the day separated themselves from..and remain pure. He hung out with sinners, but didn’t imitate their lifestyle, he was an trend setter- not a trend follower,…I think he was very cool. That is why sinners flocked to Jesus…and pharisees hated him.

Thanks for the conversation. Be Blessed.

Don,
you keep saying that Jesus used worldly things that the people of the day understood and talked about to make a spiritual point.

Can you explain Jesus’ own words here in Matthew 13 explaining why he spoken in parables in light of your comment? It would appear that one of you is incorrect in their understanding….

Here is His words:
Matthew 13:10-17 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, ****but not to them.****

Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. ****This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;they hardly hear with their ears,and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,hear with their ears,understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.****

Now who is correct here?

Don,
you keep saying that Jesus used worldly things that the people of the day understood and talked about to make a spiritual point.

Can you explain Jesus’ own words here in Matthew 13 explaining why he spoken in parables in light of your comment? It would appear that one of you is incorrect in their understanding….

Here is His words:
Matthew 13:10-17 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, ****but not to them.****

Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. ****This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;they hardly hear with their ears,and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,hear with their ears,understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.****

Now who is correct here?

Don, I too appreciate the opportunity at conversations.

Also, I appreciate the opportunity for response. You are right that the point of Jesus using the ‘wicked’ judge was to give us a deeper understanding of prayer….but, MY point was that Jesus was clear in calling him ‘wicked’. When pastors rip-off popular culture do they go so far as to call those things wicked? Or do they just simply use the popularity of the icon, creating a friendly atmosphere and giving the impression that ‘its not so bad’?

I go to a very fundamental church. We sing only hymns. The pastor goes deep into the Word in His preaching, though he is very understandable even to the newest Christian. The women mostly all wear dresses to church. Some even only wear dresses. Most homeschool. Our church is probably just under 200.

We also have a very active nursing home ministry. We have three bible clubs in three different public schools and one in a boys and girls club. We outreach the community for special occassions like Veteran’s day…where we thanked the veteran’s and gave them recognition. This past Christmas season our church did a play where we took the gospel to two different boys detention centers. Different families in the church have neighborhood bible studies in their homes for their neighbors. Our pastor is a chaplain in the reserves and preaches once a month to fellow soldiers. He is always open to them in every way. On a personal note….my kids have no qualms about telling others about Jesus. I have no trouble reaching out to the lost where they are. My husband is in the service industry and shares the gospel quite a bit with people very different, in every way, from himself.

Now, you didn’t say this in your last post, but you sure insinuated it….and I believe that this is a big point in your marketing schemes. “Your” brand of christianity (the hip, cool, with-it sort) is the one that reaches the world where they are! Not the ‘religious’ sort. (you know…like my sort) That is just wrong and those statements are slanderous to believers. (and Jesus is not cool with that, dude.)

People did NOT flock to Jesus because he was very cool. Some flocked to Him superficially because of what they could get from the situation. Others, who truly flocked to Him, did so because they understood He was Savior and Lord KNOWING that they would be forsaking all. They understood what it meant to ‘take up your cross and follow Me.’ They understood even more clearly after He died and resurrected. Stephen had no doubt!!!

Market that truth.

Don, I too appreciate the opportunity at conversations.

Also, I appreciate the opportunity for response. You are right that the point of Jesus using the ‘wicked’ judge was to give us a deeper understanding of prayer….but, MY point was that Jesus was clear in calling him ‘wicked’. When pastors rip-off popular culture do they go so far as to call those things wicked? Or do they just simply use the popularity of the icon, creating a friendly atmosphere and giving the impression that ‘its not so bad’?

I go to a very fundamental church. We sing only hymns. The pastor goes deep into the Word in His preaching, though he is very understandable even to the newest Christian. The women mostly all wear dresses to church. Some even only wear dresses. Most homeschool. Our church is probably just under 200.

We also have a very active nursing home ministry. We have three bible clubs in three different public schools and one in a boys and girls club. We outreach the community for special occassions like Veteran’s day…where we thanked the veteran’s and gave them recognition. This past Christmas season our church did a play where we took the gospel to two different boys detention centers. Different families in the church have neighborhood bible studies in their homes for their neighbors. Our pastor is a chaplain in the reserves and preaches once a month to fellow soldiers. He is always open to them in every way. On a personal note….my kids have no qualms about telling others about Jesus. I have no trouble reaching out to the lost where they are. My husband is in the service industry and shares the gospel quite a bit with people very different, in every way, from himself.

Now, you didn’t say this in your last post, but you sure insinuated it….and I believe that this is a big point in your marketing schemes. “Your” brand of christianity (the hip, cool, with-it sort) is the one that reaches the world where they are! Not the ‘religious’ sort. (you know…like my sort) That is just wrong and those statements are slanderous to believers. (and Jesus is not cool with that, dude.)

People did NOT flock to Jesus because he was very cool. Some flocked to Him superficially because of what they could get from the situation. Others, who truly flocked to Him, did so because they understood He was Savior and Lord KNOWING that they would be forsaking all. They understood what it meant to ‘take up your cross and follow Me.’ They understood even more clearly after He died and resurrected. Stephen had no doubt!!!

Market that truth.

cI went back and re-read the posts to make sure I am not misunderstanding anyone’s points and to help me get on track of this post. In doing so I read something I seemed to have not really seen the first time around.

Here it is:

Maybe what would be most useful to the kingdom would be to love our neighbors enough pray that any method…even if it is not our personal preference…would bear fruit, and trust Jesus to seperate the “tares” from the “wheat” in the judgement.

This was said by Don Record in regards to judging methods.

This is another parable taught be Jesus. Here is His explanation of it….

Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

This is not speaking of METHODS or teachings. It is talking about false christians. If you truly want a relevant scripture to this conversation possibly you could reference scriptures like I Corinthians 2:2 along with scriptures that refer to putting out of the church those who teach false doctrine.

It is false, or even shallow teaching, that helps the wicked one to sow the tares.

cI went back and re-read the posts to make sure I am not misunderstanding anyone’s points and to help me get on track of this post. In doing so I read something I seemed to have not really seen the first time around.

Here it is:

Maybe what would be most useful to the kingdom would be to love our neighbors enough pray that any method…even if it is not our personal preference…would bear fruit, and trust Jesus to seperate the “tares” from the “wheat” in the judgement.

This was said by Don Record in regards to judging methods.

This is another parable taught be Jesus. Here is His explanation of it….

Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

This is not speaking of METHODS or teachings. It is talking about false christians. If you truly want a relevant scripture to this conversation possibly you could reference scriptures like I Corinthians 2:2 along with scriptures that refer to putting out of the church those who teach false doctrine.

It is false, or even shallow teaching, that helps the wicked one to sow the tares.

Thnnks Colleen for sharing your background…we have a lot in common. I grew up in a church that sounds very much like the church you go to. My Dad was the Pastor. I so appreciate my background and the scripture I was taught. I did rebel against the church as a younger man…I regret that. I am 39 now and pastor the very kind of church you would not want to attend. It’s loud,(we give out ear plugs) meets in a nightclub on Sunday mornings, and I often use culturally relevant examples in my sermons.

However, in talking with my father who is in his seventies and still pastoring…I have come to take a “long view” of methods. I learned from my father that what I think of as “old fashioned” such as hymn singing, verse by verse teaching, the “Romans Road” etc…is actually quite recent in it’s origins…it was once scandalous and “cutting edge”. Even having a Bible in the hands of everychurch member is a fairly recent “innovation”. (The early church was “being” the New Testement…not studying it.) I realize the “cutting edge” methods we use today will someday be deemed out-dated. I am thankful for churches like yours…and my fathers…their methods still meet the needs of many in our country.

As for who is “correct” about the scripture…who knows. I don’t understand all the words of Jesus. I do believe after looking at the entirety of his life and ministry that his mission was not to share truth with a select group of “insiders” and hide his truth from the “common man”… Some scholars far more educated than I have suggested that Jesus was referring to using parables as a way of “hiding” his message from the spiritually blind but biblically literate pharisees who wanted to trap and kill him…

Thnnks Colleen for sharing your background…we have a lot in common. I grew up in a church that sounds very much like the church you go to. My Dad was the Pastor. I so appreciate my background and the scripture I was taught. I did rebel against the church as a younger man…I regret that. I am 39 now and pastor the very kind of church you would not want to attend. It’s loud,(we give out ear plugs) meets in a nightclub on Sunday mornings, and I often use culturally relevant examples in my sermons.

However, in talking with my father who is in his seventies and still pastoring…I have come to take a “long view” of methods. I learned from my father that what I think of as “old fashioned” such as hymn singing, verse by verse teaching, the “Romans Road” etc…is actually quite recent in it’s origins…it was once scandalous and “cutting edge”. Even having a Bible in the hands of everychurch member is a fairly recent “innovation”. (The early church was “being” the New Testement…not studying it.) I realize the “cutting edge” methods we use today will someday be deemed out-dated. I am thankful for churches like yours…and my fathers…their methods still meet the needs of many in our country.

As for who is “correct” about the scripture…who knows. I don’t understand all the words of Jesus. I do believe after looking at the entirety of his life and ministry that his mission was not to share truth with a select group of “insiders” and hide his truth from the “common man”… Some scholars far more educated than I have suggested that Jesus was referring to using parables as a way of “hiding” his message from the spiritually blind but biblically literate pharisees who wanted to trap and kill him…

Don,
I appreciate your background, it was interesting.
You shed a lot of light on your comments by doing so.

I’m a little alarmed at your last comment:
As for who is “correct” about the scripture…who knows. I don’t understand all the words of Jesus. I do believe after looking at the entirety of his life and ministry that his mission was not to share truth with a select group of “insiders” and hide his truth from the “common man”

Being a pastor, I would think that you would understand that truth can be known. Just because people disagree, doen’t imply that truth cannot be known.

I’m also a little alarmed that Colleen pasted the words of Jesus, himself explaining why He did what He did and you chose to disregard it…not a good response for a Christan…

“Some scholars suggest…” is a logical fallacy, an “appeal to authority” that doesn’t change the facts that we are discussing.

The bible is clear that God chose certain ones for salvation long before they were ever born. That would be the “select group of insiders” you referred to.

bob

Don,
I appreciate your background, it was interesting.
You shed a lot of light on your comments by doing so.

I’m a little alarmed at your last comment:
As for who is “correct” about the scripture…who knows. I don’t understand all the words of Jesus. I do believe after looking at the entirety of his life and ministry that his mission was not to share truth with a select group of “insiders” and hide his truth from the “common man”

Being a pastor, I would think that you would understand that truth can be known. Just because people disagree, doen’t imply that truth cannot be known.

I’m also a little alarmed that Colleen pasted the words of Jesus, himself explaining why He did what He did and you chose to disregard it…not a good response for a Christan…

“Some scholars suggest…” is a logical fallacy, an “appeal to authority” that doesn’t change the facts that we are discussing.

The bible is clear that God chose certain ones for salvation long before they were ever born. That would be the “select group of insiders” you referred to.

bob

I am sad to see that you have such an ‘exclusionary’ church, Don. You exclude parents seeking to instill moral standards on their young children by meeting in a place that one day these parents hope their children avoid. You exclude older generations by having music that assaults their senses and harms their hearing. (Why would you play music so loud you must hand out earplugs?? Obviously, there are young adults who think they are invinsible and can’t lose their hearing who won’t use the earplugs)

My church is very inclusive! It is a place that accepts people as they are….but, doesn’t allow them to feel comfortable if they refuse to conform to the image of Christ with time. We have music, that may not completely appeal to everyone, but can be sung by all and can be listened to and learned from by all. Old people and young people can be sure that their senses are not assaulted by loud music and flashing lights. Sort of a place to decompress after being assualted by the world all week long! We present Christ and Him crucified with no fancy dressing so as to exclude no one except those who reject Him.

And just to let you know…..I did not share my ‘background’ with you. I shared where I am right at this moment. See….my background is one of drugs and sin and rebellion. I was also a part of a charismatic church that relied on loud music and being culturally relevant to reach the lost in our areas. People came and went, changing only for a time. We were also short on deep messages from the Word, instead substituted that for shallow, manipultive messages that made us feel good for our works of reaching the lost that those dead, baptisty, old fashioned churches wouldn’t reach.

Then I began to see that only the preachers seemed to be ‘in it’ for the long haul. Most other people came and went with the most relevant churches. I began to see that we were constantly changing to keep up with other movements. Always wanting to figure out what new thing could we try to get people in. Street preaching on Friday nights. Rock and Roll concerts on Saturday night. (except in the 90′s when we did rap concerts with break dancing!)

I longed for the stability of a God who did not change! A God who could rip me out from the confusing racket of constant change and culture that always seemed to want to drag me away from being calm and quiet before the Lord!

I will pray for your church that you will learn to rely on the Lord to bring people HE is dealing with and that you will quit relying on the marketing techniques of the world and the culture to seduce people into trying out a Jesus who is cool….without telling them that Jesus could one day expect them to die for Him and give up all they love and cherish for Him.

I am sad to see that you have such an ‘exclusionary’ church, Don. You exclude parents seeking to instill moral standards on their young children by meeting in a place that one day these parents hope their children avoid. You exclude older generations by having music that assaults their senses and harms their hearing. (Why would you play music so loud you must hand out earplugs?? Obviously, there are young adults who think they are invinsible and can’t lose their hearing who won’t use the earplugs)

My church is very inclusive! It is a place that accepts people as they are….but, doesn’t allow them to feel comfortable if they refuse to conform to the image of Christ with time. We have music, that may not completely appeal to everyone, but can be sung by all and can be listened to and learned from by all. Old people and young people can be sure that their senses are not assaulted by loud music and flashing lights. Sort of a place to decompress after being assualted by the world all week long! We present Christ and Him crucified with no fancy dressing so as to exclude no one except those who reject Him.

And just to let you know…..I did not share my ‘background’ with you. I shared where I am right at this moment. See….my background is one of drugs and sin and rebellion. I was also a part of a charismatic church that relied on loud music and being culturally relevant to reach the lost in our areas. People came and went, changing only for a time. We were also short on deep messages from the Word, instead substituted that for shallow, manipultive messages that made us feel good for our works of reaching the lost that those dead, baptisty, old fashioned churches wouldn’t reach.

Then I began to see that only the preachers seemed to be ‘in it’ for the long haul. Most other people came and went with the most relevant churches. I began to see that we were constantly changing to keep up with other movements. Always wanting to figure out what new thing could we try to get people in. Street preaching on Friday nights. Rock and Roll concerts on Saturday night. (except in the 90′s when we did rap concerts with break dancing!)

I longed for the stability of a God who did not change! A God who could rip me out from the confusing racket of constant change and culture that always seemed to want to drag me away from being calm and quiet before the Lord!

I will pray for your church that you will learn to rely on the Lord to bring people HE is dealing with and that you will quit relying on the marketing techniques of the world and the culture to seduce people into trying out a Jesus who is cool….without telling them that Jesus could one day expect them to die for Him and give up all they love and cherish for Him.

To all,
I’ve been lying in the weeds here eavesdropping on the conversation as it were, sorry if that’s impolite, not sure what special manners exist for blogs.

Anyway, an observation if I may, Colleen, I was raised in a church that sounds pretty much like yours as best I can tell, but my new wife and I left in our mid-20s to attend an Assembly of God where I and my family have been for 24 years now. Though at one time I never thought I’d ever hear myself say this, I completely understand why you treasure it as you do. There can be a special quality to fellowships like that, a stability that as you’ve said is sadly missing in so many churches and their congregants. I’m guessing we’re close in age, I’ve witnessed the same shallowness and chasing after trends that you describe in so may churches, and share the same frustrations with them.

But here’s my observation: the ability of a given church to effectively minister to the lost and to further provide a stabile church environment for the saved is not predicated on it’s methods as much as the spiritual maturity of the pastor and leadership. To put it another way, I’ve seen churches on both ends of the “liberal/conservative” spectrum – and everywhere in between for that matter – both succeed and fail. Why? The methods and traditions and practices were all over the map, no point of consistency or clear cause/effect there. But the results do directly correlate with the spiritual maturity of the pastor and the depth of his understanding of his calling in that community. Methods and practices and traditions and musical styles and on and on that would have fallen flat at best in one place have ministered to countless hundreds in other environments.

I grew up in rural Michigan in a little country church describe above. I heard the gospel there, learned all the great old hymns (and they ARE GREAT, btw) there, was saved and baptized there. I’ll never forget it nor take it for granted, I praise God for that church. But I’ve also been to Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York for example and watched in awe as a style and methodology that would positively scandalize Kawkawlin Michigan reaches and saves thousands in the inner city. The two churches probably couldn’t be more different in every way, BUT they both have at their core a rock-solid hold on the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And their pastors are mature men of God who understand the environments they are ministering in, and adapt their ministries accordingly, never compromising the Word, but teaching and preaching and reaching in a way that works where they’ve been planted.

So. Homer Simpson? Never watched the show, prob’ly won’t ever, certainly no plans to. Couldn’t care less. But, I know the campus pastor mentioned above, the one that used the show to illustrate his points in a way that the students understood, and kids on his campus are being saved and gathered into the church by the dozens. Doesn’t speak to me, but apparently it does to them. As for me, I get tears in my eyes every time we dust off one of the “old hymns” and insert it into our praise chorus line-up. So do all of the other people in the congregation who remember them as I do. The kids sing along politely, but they don’t “get it”. OK. Sad, but… OK, it’s a generational thing. And a background thing. And an environmental thing.

If I’ve learned one thing in 50 years, it’s that the body of Christ just seems to defy generalization. What works here doesn’t there, and vice versa. But the Gospel of Christ preached with Godly wisdom and maturity still works wonders and changes lives. How anybody who is genuinely listening to God is lead to reach out and preach is up to them, and fine by me.

Best,
Regan

To all,
I’ve been lying in the weeds here eavesdropping on the conversation as it were, sorry if that’s impolite, not sure what special manners exist for blogs.

Anyway, an observation if I may, Colleen, I was raised in a church that sounds pretty much like yours as best I can tell, but my new wife and I left in our mid-20s to attend an Assembly of God where I and my family have been for 24 years now. Though at one time I never thought I’d ever hear myself say this, I completely understand why you treasure it as you do. There can be a special quality to fellowships like that, a stability that as you’ve said is sadly missing in so many churches and their congregants. I’m guessing we’re close in age, I’ve witnessed the same shallowness and chasing after trends that you describe in so may churches, and share the same frustrations with them.

But here’s my observation: the ability of a given church to effectively minister to the lost and to further provide a stabile church environment for the saved is not predicated on it’s methods as much as the spiritual maturity of the pastor and leadership. To put it another way, I’ve seen churches on both ends of the “liberal/conservative” spectrum – and everywhere in between for that matter – both succeed and fail. Why? The methods and traditions and practices were all over the map, no point of consistency or clear cause/effect there. But the results do directly correlate with the spiritual maturity of the pastor and the depth of his understanding of his calling in that community. Methods and practices and traditions and musical styles and on and on that would have fallen flat at best in one place have ministered to countless hundreds in other environments.

I grew up in rural Michigan in a little country church describe above. I heard the gospel there, learned all the great old hymns (and they ARE GREAT, btw) there, was saved and baptized there. I’ll never forget it nor take it for granted, I praise God for that church. But I’ve also been to Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York for example and watched in awe as a style and methodology that would positively scandalize Kawkawlin Michigan reaches and saves thousands in the inner city. The two churches probably couldn’t be more different in every way, BUT they both have at their core a rock-solid hold on the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And their pastors are mature men of God who understand the environments they are ministering in, and adapt their ministries accordingly, never compromising the Word, but teaching and preaching and reaching in a way that works where they’ve been planted.

So. Homer Simpson? Never watched the show, prob’ly won’t ever, certainly no plans to. Couldn’t care less. But, I know the campus pastor mentioned above, the one that used the show to illustrate his points in a way that the students understood, and kids on his campus are being saved and gathered into the church by the dozens. Doesn’t speak to me, but apparently it does to them. As for me, I get tears in my eyes every time we dust off one of the “old hymns” and insert it into our praise chorus line-up. So do all of the other people in the congregation who remember them as I do. The kids sing along politely, but they don’t “get it”. OK. Sad, but… OK, it’s a generational thing. And a background thing. And an environmental thing.

If I’ve learned one thing in 50 years, it’s that the body of Christ just seems to defy generalization. What works here doesn’t there, and vice versa. But the Gospel of Christ preached with Godly wisdom and maturity still works wonders and changes lives. How anybody who is genuinely listening to God is lead to reach out and preach is up to them, and fine by me.

Best,
Regan

Very interesting conversation! It was great reading everyone’s comments. I have to say that I primarily agree with most of Colleen’s and Robert’s statements. They made a lot of good points. The issue of emulating pop culture or using movies or tv shows to lead into a sermon is a very important one. Some may say its to reach people, but I really don’t think it is. In my opinion, and I just thought of this not long ago, the real reason why people may be obliged to use pop culture elements in their communication of the gospel is, quite simply they LIKE pop culture. For some its the Simpsons, for others, its Seinfeld. Others, it could be Star Trek or the lives of celebrities. We like these things, therefore its much easier and less brain power, and more fun to use them as examples for sermons.

What’s funny, is that we have hundreds of real life examples, real life people that lived and struggled, in our Bibles to use in sermons. It doesn’t matter if these events occurred a long time ago; the problem is still the same: SIN. Someone who is a teacher and a communicator should be able to explain all that without distracting gimmicks. But studying the Bible, becoming more and more intimate with the Word, allowing the Holy Spirit to open understanding, takes a lot of prayer, effort and time. Much more effort than crafting a 20 min. sermon using the Spiderman movie as an example, which many people can do in their sleep.

I really like the Star Wars movies. But I would be extremely turned-off if a pastor came at me with some sermon trying to use Star Wars characters or themes to bring some Bibical point across to me. The Word of God transcends cultures, generations, musical tastes, everything. We’re talking about the truth of Jesus Christ that was revealed to us before there was media as we know it. His word will stand after all that has come, which it has, and after it goes, which one day it will.

Another element to this conversation is the effect of technology and media on us as a society in general. I am certainly not a proponent of not making use of any media at all, but as Marshall McCluhen (not sure how to spell his surname) states, the medium is the message. I think this statement connects with the points Colleen and Robert made: trying to communicate to Word of God, and all that entails, using a tv show such as the Simpsons as a springboard. All that will have been accomplished is free advertising for the tv show, plain and simple.

Very interesting conversation! It was great reading everyone’s comments. I have to say that I primarily agree with most of Colleen’s and Robert’s statements. They made a lot of good points. The issue of emulating pop culture or using movies or tv shows to lead into a sermon is a very important one. Some may say its to reach people, but I really don’t think it is. In my opinion, and I just thought of this not long ago, the real reason why people may be obliged to use pop culture elements in their communication of the gospel is, quite simply they LIKE pop culture. For some its the Simpsons, for others, its Seinfeld. Others, it could be Star Trek or the lives of celebrities. We like these things, therefore its much easier and less brain power, and more fun to use them as examples for sermons.

What’s funny, is that we have hundreds of real life examples, real life people that lived and struggled, in our Bibles to use in sermons. It doesn’t matter if these events occurred a long time ago; the problem is still the same: SIN. Someone who is a teacher and a communicator should be able to explain all that without distracting gimmicks. But studying the Bible, becoming more and more intimate with the Word, allowing the Holy Spirit to open understanding, takes a lot of prayer, effort and time. Much more effort than crafting a 20 min. sermon using the Spiderman movie as an example, which many people can do in their sleep.

I really like the Star Wars movies. But I would be extremely turned-off if a pastor came at me with some sermon trying to use Star Wars characters or themes to bring some Bibical point across to me. The Word of God transcends cultures, generations, musical tastes, everything. We’re talking about the truth of Jesus Christ that was revealed to us before there was media as we know it. His word will stand after all that has come, which it has, and after it goes, which one day it will.

Another element to this conversation is the effect of technology and media on us as a society in general. I am certainly not a proponent of not making use of any media at all, but as Marshall McCluhen (not sure how to spell his surname) states, the medium is the message. I think this statement connects with the points Colleen and Robert made: trying to communicate to Word of God, and all that entails, using a tv show such as the Simpsons as a springboard. All that will have been accomplished is free advertising for the tv show, plain and simple.

I am not a fan of ripping of the latest movie, tv show, etc. either, but for different reasons. As Denise said it is very often a “shortcut” to creativity and shortcuts like that just don’t work.

I am a HUGE fan of bringing the truth of Christ in a way that is engaging, original, relevant and in a way that makes an impact.

One of the key scriptures of Holy Cow Creative is John 12:49

“I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.”

While I don’t do ripoffs of the latest TV shows I do use creative ways to help pastors in how they present the gospel. And folks, it works. It doesn’t just fill the pews, it moves people to action, to change…and that’s what it is all about.

I am not a fan of ripping of the latest movie, tv show, etc. either, but for different reasons. As Denise said it is very often a “shortcut” to creativity and shortcuts like that just don’t work.

I am a HUGE fan of bringing the truth of Christ in a way that is engaging, original, relevant and in a way that makes an impact.

One of the key scriptures of Holy Cow Creative is John 12:49

“I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.”

While I don’t do ripoffs of the latest TV shows I do use creative ways to help pastors in how they present the gospel. And folks, it works. It doesn’t just fill the pews, it moves people to action, to change…and that’s what it is all about.

Holycow,
Pragmatism.
It works…therefore it’s the right thing to do.

Did you know that there is a church in CA called the XXX Church? They use a huge 15 foot phallus to draw attention to the booth that they set up at Pornography trade shows.

Do you know how they justify this?

You guessed it…because it works! “We talk to people, we hand out a bible or two, and so our “method” is validated.”

You can’t use the fact that something might “work” once in a while as justification for the act itself. Our justification must come from the word.

So far, there has been no sound justification for using sinful culture to preach the word…not on this thread…

Holycow,
Pragmatism.
It works…therefore it’s the right thing to do.

Did you know that there is a church in CA called the XXX Church? They use a huge 15 foot phallus to draw attention to the booth that they set up at Pornography trade shows.

Do you know how they justify this?

You guessed it…because it works! “We talk to people, we hand out a bible or two, and so our “method” is validated.”

You can’t use the fact that something might “work” once in a while as justification for the act itself. Our justification must come from the word.

So far, there has been no sound justification for using sinful culture to preach the word…not on this thread…

When I heard of that XXX church a year or so ago, I cringed. Can anyone honestly think, I mean let’s get real here, that God is pleased with displaying a 15 foot p***s for all to see? With all the intelligence that God has given us, we can’t think of a better way to talk to people about the problems of pornography? We sink to the level of the world by shocking just for the sake of shocking. I think this is a really good example of taking relevance way, way, way over the edge, if there is an edge.

I wonder though, what is the definition of “it works.” What exactly is working? As a relatively young person of 30, married with a kid on the way, I will say that sometimes people try too hard to “reach” the younger generation to the point where it just seems corny and desperate, even though you may not realize they feel this way. They may never tell you. So what is “it works?” The fact that they come to youth group every week? Their participation in activities? I think what the issue may be here that we want to hold someone’s attention long enough to tell them about the gospel. And our society has a very short attention span. People are distracted. You can’t really talk to people because they are not listening. Now when you insert clips from the popular movie, tv show or event of the hour, guess what? That just adds more distraction. More media for me to take in when my brain is already numb. You must understand that most people don’t realize this is happening. They don’t know they are on overload.

That is something to ponder, because you can’t stop there. What can truly get though all that is distracting us? It is the restorative power of the Holy Spirit. Not the method used to get my attention, which may actually do the opposite of what you intended it to do.

When I heard of that XXX church a year or so ago, I cringed. Can anyone honestly think, I mean let’s get real here, that God is pleased with displaying a 15 foot p***s for all to see? With all the intelligence that God has given us, we can’t think of a better way to talk to people about the problems of pornography? We sink to the level of the world by shocking just for the sake of shocking. I think this is a really good example of taking relevance way, way, way over the edge, if there is an edge.

I wonder though, what is the definition of “it works.” What exactly is working? As a relatively young person of 30, married with a kid on the way, I will say that sometimes people try too hard to “reach” the younger generation to the point where it just seems corny and desperate, even though you may not realize they feel this way. They may never tell you. So what is “it works?” The fact that they come to youth group every week? Their participation in activities? I think what the issue may be here that we want to hold someone’s attention long enough to tell them about the gospel. And our society has a very short attention span. People are distracted. You can’t really talk to people because they are not listening. Now when you insert clips from the popular movie, tv show or event of the hour, guess what? That just adds more distraction. More media for me to take in when my brain is already numb. You must understand that most people don’t realize this is happening. They don’t know they are on overload.

That is something to ponder, because you can’t stop there. What can truly get though all that is distracting us? It is the restorative power of the Holy Spirit. Not the method used to get my attention, which may actually do the opposite of what you intended it to do.

Denise,
good thoughts.

What everyone is forgetting is this: what gives us the right to deviate from what we are commanded?

Preach the gospel to all creatures.

Preach = Proclaim

The gospel = The good news.

We see that Paul tells timothy to preach, teach, exhort, all that he’d been taught.

We see that they read the word, explained it.

So for unbelievers…proclaim the word…

For church…read, explain, exhort.

What other clues do we have as to what we are to do?

I’m just asking….

Denise,
good thoughts.

What everyone is forgetting is this: what gives us the right to deviate from what we are commanded?

Preach the gospel to all creatures.

Preach = Proclaim

The gospel = The good news.

We see that Paul tells timothy to preach, teach, exhort, all that he’d been taught.

We see that they read the word, explained it.

So for unbelievers…proclaim the word…

For church…read, explain, exhort.

What other clues do we have as to what we are to do?

I’m just asking….

Robert, I think you’re right. We should always be constantly aware of whether or not our actions are pleasing to God and all that He has commanded us to do. We are His representatives to the world and we must make sure we are worthy of that. We have absolutely no right to deviate from how He tells us to do things. Its really about being humble and the most concerned about what He thinks of something we are doing. And really asking ourselves honestly in prayer, if He is pleased with a particular thing, not assuming its okay because the end seems to justify the means. Sin is powerful. It makes us experts at deceiving ourselves if we’re not very careful.

Another question to ponder is this: whether it’s copied from the world or something completely original, why is there a drive to constantly produce different methods of communicating the gospel to people? That is what advertising agencies do all the time for companies. It’s scary terrain to me and makes me wonder what do we really think about the Good News, because by nature advertising is manipulative and the product is almost never as good as the claims behind it.

Robert, I think you’re right. We should always be constantly aware of whether or not our actions are pleasing to God and all that He has commanded us to do. We are His representatives to the world and we must make sure we are worthy of that. We have absolutely no right to deviate from how He tells us to do things. Its really about being humble and the most concerned about what He thinks of something we are doing. And really asking ourselves honestly in prayer, if He is pleased with a particular thing, not assuming its okay because the end seems to justify the means. Sin is powerful. It makes us experts at deceiving ourselves if we’re not very careful.

Another question to ponder is this: whether it’s copied from the world or something completely original, why is there a drive to constantly produce different methods of communicating the gospel to people? That is what advertising agencies do all the time for companies. It’s scary terrain to me and makes me wonder what do we really think about the Good News, because by nature advertising is manipulative and the product is almost never as good as the claims behind it.

Denise,
Exactly.

How we go about evangelizing or preaching the word tells the story of what we think of the power of God’s word.

I have an aquaintance who runs a blog called “A form of Sound Words” and he is the most uncompromising preacher I’ve ever come across.

If you believe that God’s word is powerful and that it is the means that God uses to convert a soul, then you will have no use for video screens, smoke pods, rock bands, TV themed sermons, and other gimmicks.

Just ask rand.

http://www.aformofsoundwords.blogspot.com

Denise,
Exactly.

How we go about evangelizing or preaching the word tells the story of what we think of the power of God’s word.

I have an aquaintance who runs a blog called “A form of Sound Words” and he is the most uncompromising preacher I’ve ever come across.

If you believe that God’s word is powerful and that it is the means that God uses to convert a soul, then you will have no use for video screens, smoke pods, rock bands, TV themed sermons, and other gimmicks.

Just ask rand.

http://www.aformofsoundwords.blogspot.com

wow…lots of replies. I would love to go into depth on all of the different points….cause I love to hear myself type. (haha)

I guess what I would like to say in regards to the whole point of the blog is that YES, Jesus and the Apostles referenced their culture, but they did NOT imitate popular culture.

Also, I went to dictionary.com and looked up the word. Two of them fit our discussion.

1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.

Jesus did address the culture of His time and that is not wrong. It is not even wrong to imitate the culture if the culture is morally and ethically godly. But, when we talk about today’s ‘POPULAR’ culture, I don’t think ANYONE would call it godly.

See…I don’t think the problem, as stated in the blog above, is that so many of today’s churches/ministries are lazy and non-creative and so they steal another’s creativity. The problem…or sin…is that they are stealing/imitating from an UNgodly source!! Sources that in no way acknowledge Christ, and so many times actually outright ridicule Christianity. The people who are imitating them are actually FLATTERING them. (afterall, imitation is the greatest form of flattery) They are laughing with this ungodly popular culture and asking non-believers and immature believers to join in with them instead of showing how God hates divorce, rebellion, drunkenness, adultry, homosexuality, and on and on and on!

(Flotsam, I do agree with you about the maturity of the leadership. And I would say that quite a few of the ‘new’ sorts of churches today are led by very immature men. Men who refuse to grow up and who try to run their church like they did the previous youth group they led. These are men who never out grew their immaturity of thinking that ‘having fun’ should be the number one goal in life, refusing to bring in the seriousness of what it means to be a mature Christian. I Timothy would be a great place to see what I mean.

But, all that to say….several of these immature men are leading large churches. This, I believe, is because they are charismatic in personality.

There are also lots of mature men who have stability, but we would never consider them godly. These are men who lead the Mormon churches and JW’s, etc…

Everything we are taught, even by stable men with large churches and who find favor with other men, should be put against the word of God. Sorry that was off topic, but I just wanted to get that in there. )

wow…lots of replies. I would love to go into depth on all of the different points….cause I love to hear myself type. (haha)

I guess what I would like to say in regards to the whole point of the blog is that YES, Jesus and the Apostles referenced their culture, but they did NOT imitate popular culture.

Also, I went to dictionary.com and looked up the word. Two of them fit our discussion.

1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.

Jesus did address the culture of His time and that is not wrong. It is not even wrong to imitate the culture if the culture is morally and ethically godly. But, when we talk about today’s ‘POPULAR’ culture, I don’t think ANYONE would call it godly.

See…I don’t think the problem, as stated in the blog above, is that so many of today’s churches/ministries are lazy and non-creative and so they steal another’s creativity. The problem…or sin…is that they are stealing/imitating from an UNgodly source!! Sources that in no way acknowledge Christ, and so many times actually outright ridicule Christianity. The people who are imitating them are actually FLATTERING them. (afterall, imitation is the greatest form of flattery) They are laughing with this ungodly popular culture and asking non-believers and immature believers to join in with them instead of showing how God hates divorce, rebellion, drunkenness, adultry, homosexuality, and on and on and on!

(Flotsam, I do agree with you about the maturity of the leadership. And I would say that quite a few of the ‘new’ sorts of churches today are led by very immature men. Men who refuse to grow up and who try to run their church like they did the previous youth group they led. These are men who never out grew their immaturity of thinking that ‘having fun’ should be the number one goal in life, refusing to bring in the seriousness of what it means to be a mature Christian. I Timothy would be a great place to see what I mean.

But, all that to say….several of these immature men are leading large churches. This, I believe, is because they are charismatic in personality.

There are also lots of mature men who have stability, but we would never consider them godly. These are men who lead the Mormon churches and JW’s, etc…

Everything we are taught, even by stable men with large churches and who find favor with other men, should be put against the word of God. Sorry that was off topic, but I just wanted to get that in there. )

Wow – what a heated topic!

@Robert. I admire your passion and that you would stand up for what YOU believe but you do so in a way that is judgmental and arrogant. I am not saying that some your points (and those of Colleen)aren’t valid but the method of your approach to this post is exactly what turns some people away from Christianity.

Foolish arguments that continue to divide the Church and Christians are of no benefit – to our faith or those who do not believe in Christ. Yes, there are churches and church leaders who have gone too far to “market” the Word of God. However, I would say that there is no justification in saying that we cannot use pop culture (or hide from it)to spread the Gospel.

Colleen posted a couple comments about “I will pray for your church that you will learn to rely on the Lord to bring people HE is dealing with and that you will quit relying on the marketing techniques of the world..” Maybe Don IS relying on the Lord and doing what God has called him too. Who are you to question that?

You also stated “I pray that more Christians would forsake the popular clothing trends and hairstyles and nicest cars and biggest houses and help others escape those bondages” also and so on.

Does that mean that Christians who dress in Abercrombie, drive a BMW, or have a Zac Efron haircut are in bondage? I know of Christians who are “pop culture” who live Jesus more than some of the “traditional” people. We can glorify God no matter how we look, dress, or what we live in. Honestly, I would fear coming to your church and being transparent because your comments seem to judge the outside – not the heart. Maybe the comments come from the stand point that YOU have been judged for your appearance.

We should not hide or insulate ourselves from the culture around us. And this comment doesn’t mean to become of the world. We should also not condemn people as it is happening in this post without looking at ourselves first. One thing I have noticed that people who desire to have theological fights and stone throwing competitions would probably be more effective as a true disciple if they would love others unconditionally and agree to disagree on some viewpoints.

There are bigger issues than whether churches are right or wrong for using The Simpson’s for a message point. Besides, if a person comes to know and follow Christ because they visited a church who used a Simpson’s poster, praise God! We should rejoice.

Go out and love your neighbor today like Jesus would and stop nitpicking about YOUR point of view. I know Michael and his heart – it should not be questioned.

Wow – what a heated topic!

@Robert. I admire your passion and that you would stand up for what YOU believe but you do so in a way that is judgmental and arrogant. I am not saying that some your points (and those of Colleen)aren’t valid but the method of your approach to this post is exactly what turns some people away from Christianity.

Foolish arguments that continue to divide the Church and Christians are of no benefit – to our faith or those who do not believe in Christ. Yes, there are churches and church leaders who have gone too far to “market” the Word of God. However, I would say that there is no justification in saying that we cannot use pop culture (or hide from it)to spread the Gospel.

Colleen posted a couple comments about “I will pray for your church that you will learn to rely on the Lord to bring people HE is dealing with and that you will quit relying on the marketing techniques of the world..” Maybe Don IS relying on the Lord and doing what God has called him too. Who are you to question that?

You also stated “I pray that more Christians would forsake the popular clothing trends and hairstyles and nicest cars and biggest houses and help others escape those bondages” also and so on.

Does that mean that Christians who dress in Abercrombie, drive a BMW, or have a Zac Efron haircut are in bondage? I know of Christians who are “pop culture” who live Jesus more than some of the “traditional” people. We can glorify God no matter how we look, dress, or what we live in. Honestly, I would fear coming to your church and being transparent because your comments seem to judge the outside – not the heart. Maybe the comments come from the stand point that YOU have been judged for your appearance.

We should not hide or insulate ourselves from the culture around us. And this comment doesn’t mean to become of the world. We should also not condemn people as it is happening in this post without looking at ourselves first. One thing I have noticed that people who desire to have theological fights and stone throwing competitions would probably be more effective as a true disciple if they would love others unconditionally and agree to disagree on some viewpoints.

There are bigger issues than whether churches are right or wrong for using The Simpson’s for a message point. Besides, if a person comes to know and follow Christ because they visited a church who used a Simpson’s poster, praise God! We should rejoice.

Go out and love your neighbor today like Jesus would and stop nitpicking about YOUR point of view. I know Michael and his heart – it should not be questioned.