Don, I too appreciate the opportunity at conversations.

Also, I appreciate the opportunity for response. You are right that the point of Jesus using the ‘wicked’ judge was to give us a deeper understanding of prayer….but, MY point was that Jesus was clear in calling him ‘wicked’. When pastors rip-off popular culture do they go so far as to call those things wicked? Or do they just simply use the popularity of the icon, creating a friendly atmosphere and giving the impression that ‘its not so bad’?

I go to a very fundamental church. We sing only hymns. The pastor goes deep into the Word in His preaching, though he is very understandable even to the newest Christian. The women mostly all wear dresses to church. Some even only wear dresses. Most homeschool. Our church is probably just under 200.

We also have a very active nursing home ministry. We have three bible clubs in three different public schools and one in a boys and girls club. We outreach the community for special occassions like Veteran’s day…where we thanked the veteran’s and gave them recognition. This past Christmas season our church did a play where we took the gospel to two different boys detention centers. Different families in the church have neighborhood bible studies in their homes for their neighbors. Our pastor is a chaplain in the reserves and preaches once a month to fellow soldiers. He is always open to them in every way. On a personal note….my kids have no qualms about telling others about Jesus. I have no trouble reaching out to the lost where they are. My husband is in the service industry and shares the gospel quite a bit with people very different, in every way, from himself.

Now, you didn’t say this in your last post, but you sure insinuated it….and I believe that this is a big point in your marketing schemes. “Your” brand of christianity (the hip, cool, with-it sort) is the one that reaches the world where they are! Not the ‘religious’ sort. (you know…like my sort) That is just wrong and those statements are slanderous to believers. (and Jesus is not cool with that, dude.)

People did NOT flock to Jesus because he was very cool. Some flocked to Him superficially because of what they could get from the situation. Others, who truly flocked to Him, did so because they understood He was Savior and Lord KNOWING that they would be forsaking all. They understood what it meant to ‘take up your cross and follow Me.’ They understood even more clearly after He died and resurrected. Stephen had no doubt!!!

Market that truth.

cI went back and re-read the posts to make sure I am not misunderstanding anyone’s points and to help me get on track of this post. In doing so I read something I seemed to have not really seen the first time around.

Here it is:

Maybe what would be most useful to the kingdom would be to love our neighbors enough pray that any method…even if it is not our personal preference…would bear fruit, and trust Jesus to seperate the “tares” from the “wheat” in the judgement.

This was said by Don Record in regards to judging methods.

This is another parable taught be Jesus. Here is His explanation of it….

Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

This is not speaking of METHODS or teachings. It is talking about false christians. If you truly want a relevant scripture to this conversation possibly you could reference scriptures like I Corinthians 2:2 along with scriptures that refer to putting out of the church those who teach false doctrine.

It is false, or even shallow teaching, that helps the wicked one to sow the tares.

Thnnks Colleen for sharing your background…we have a lot in common. I grew up in a church that sounds very much like the church you go to. My Dad was the Pastor. I so appreciate my background and the scripture I was taught. I did rebel against the church as a younger man…I regret that. I am 39 now and pastor the very kind of church you would not want to attend. It’s loud,(we give out ear plugs) meets in a nightclub on Sunday mornings, and I often use culturally relevant examples in my sermons.

However, in talking with my father who is in his seventies and still pastoring…I have come to take a “long view” of methods. I learned from my father that what I think of as “old fashioned” such as hymn singing, verse by verse teaching, the “Romans Road” etc…is actually quite recent in it’s origins…it was once scandalous and “cutting edge”. Even having a Bible in the hands of everychurch member is a fairly recent “innovation”. (The early church was “being” the New Testement…not studying it.) I realize the “cutting edge” methods we use today will someday be deemed out-dated. I am thankful for churches like yours…and my fathers…their methods still meet the needs of many in our country.

As for who is “correct” about the scripture…who knows. I don’t understand all the words of Jesus. I do believe after looking at the entirety of his life and ministry that his mission was not to share truth with a select group of “insiders” and hide his truth from the “common man”… Some scholars far more educated than I have suggested that Jesus was referring to using parables as a way of “hiding” his message from the spiritually blind but biblically literate pharisees who wanted to trap and kill him…

Don,
I appreciate your background, it was interesting.
You shed a lot of light on your comments by doing so.

I’m a little alarmed at your last comment:
As for who is “correct” about the scripture…who knows. I don’t understand all the words of Jesus. I do believe after looking at the entirety of his life and ministry that his mission was not to share truth with a select group of “insiders” and hide his truth from the “common man”

Being a pastor, I would think that you would understand that truth can be known. Just because people disagree, doen’t imply that truth cannot be known.

I’m also a little alarmed that Colleen pasted the words of Jesus, himself explaining why He did what He did and you chose to disregard it…not a good response for a Christan…

“Some scholars suggest…” is a logical fallacy, an “appeal to authority” that doesn’t change the facts that we are discussing.

The bible is clear that God chose certain ones for salvation long before they were ever born. That would be the “select group of insiders” you referred to.

bob

I am sad to see that you have such an ‘exclusionary’ church, Don. You exclude parents seeking to instill moral standards on their young children by meeting in a place that one day these parents hope their children avoid. You exclude older generations by having music that assaults their senses and harms their hearing. (Why would you play music so loud you must hand out earplugs?? Obviously, there are young adults who think they are invinsible and can’t lose their hearing who won’t use the earplugs)

My church is very inclusive! It is a place that accepts people as they are….but, doesn’t allow them to feel comfortable if they refuse to conform to the image of Christ with time. We have music, that may not completely appeal to everyone, but can be sung by all and can be listened to and learned from by all. Old people and young people can be sure that their senses are not assaulted by loud music and flashing lights. Sort of a place to decompress after being assualted by the world all week long! We present Christ and Him crucified with no fancy dressing so as to exclude no one except those who reject Him.

And just to let you know…..I did not share my ‘background’ with you. I shared where I am right at this moment. See….my background is one of drugs and sin and rebellion. I was also a part of a charismatic church that relied on loud music and being culturally relevant to reach the lost in our areas. People came and went, changing only for a time. We were also short on deep messages from the Word, instead substituted that for shallow, manipultive messages that made us feel good for our works of reaching the lost that those dead, baptisty, old fashioned churches wouldn’t reach.

Then I began to see that only the preachers seemed to be ‘in it’ for the long haul. Most other people came and went with the most relevant churches. I began to see that we were constantly changing to keep up with other movements. Always wanting to figure out what new thing could we try to get people in. Street preaching on Friday nights. Rock and Roll concerts on Saturday night. (except in the 90′s when we did rap concerts with break dancing!)

I longed for the stability of a God who did not change! A God who could rip me out from the confusing racket of constant change and culture that always seemed to want to drag me away from being calm and quiet before the Lord!

I will pray for your church that you will learn to rely on the Lord to bring people HE is dealing with and that you will quit relying on the marketing techniques of the world and the culture to seduce people into trying out a Jesus who is cool….without telling them that Jesus could one day expect them to die for Him and give up all they love and cherish for Him.

To all,
I’ve been lying in the weeds here eavesdropping on the conversation as it were, sorry if that’s impolite, not sure what special manners exist for blogs.

Anyway, an observation if I may, Colleen, I was raised in a church that sounds pretty much like yours as best I can tell, but my new wife and I left in our mid-20s to attend an Assembly of God where I and my family have been for 24 years now. Though at one time I never thought I’d ever hear myself say this, I completely understand why you treasure it as you do. There can be a special quality to fellowships like that, a stability that as you’ve said is sadly missing in so many churches and their congregants. I’m guessing we’re close in age, I’ve witnessed the same shallowness and chasing after trends that you describe in so may churches, and share the same frustrations with them.

But here’s my observation: the ability of a given church to effectively minister to the lost and to further provide a stabile church environment for the saved is not predicated on it’s methods as much as the spiritual maturity of the pastor and leadership. To put it another way, I’ve seen churches on both ends of the “liberal/conservative” spectrum – and everywhere in between for that matter – both succeed and fail. Why? The methods and traditions and practices were all over the map, no point of consistency or clear cause/effect there. But the results do directly correlate with the spiritual maturity of the pastor and the depth of his understanding of his calling in that community. Methods and practices and traditions and musical styles and on and on that would have fallen flat at best in one place have ministered to countless hundreds in other environments.

I grew up in rural Michigan in a little country church describe above. I heard the gospel there, learned all the great old hymns (and they ARE GREAT, btw) there, was saved and baptized there. I’ll never forget it nor take it for granted, I praise God for that church. But I’ve also been to Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York for example and watched in awe as a style and methodology that would positively scandalize Kawkawlin Michigan reaches and saves thousands in the inner city. The two churches probably couldn’t be more different in every way, BUT they both have at their core a rock-solid hold on the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And their pastors are mature men of God who understand the environments they are ministering in, and adapt their ministries accordingly, never compromising the Word, but teaching and preaching and reaching in a way that works where they’ve been planted.

So. Homer Simpson? Never watched the show, prob’ly won’t ever, certainly no plans to. Couldn’t care less. But, I know the campus pastor mentioned above, the one that used the show to illustrate his points in a way that the students understood, and kids on his campus are being saved and gathered into the church by the dozens. Doesn’t speak to me, but apparently it does to them. As for me, I get tears in my eyes every time we dust off one of the “old hymns” and insert it into our praise chorus line-up. So do all of the other people in the congregation who remember them as I do. The kids sing along politely, but they don’t “get it”. OK. Sad, but… OK, it’s a generational thing. And a background thing. And an environmental thing.

If I’ve learned one thing in 50 years, it’s that the body of Christ just seems to defy generalization. What works here doesn’t there, and vice versa. But the Gospel of Christ preached with Godly wisdom and maturity still works wonders and changes lives. How anybody who is genuinely listening to God is lead to reach out and preach is up to them, and fine by me.

Best,
Regan

Very interesting conversation! It was great reading everyone’s comments. I have to say that I primarily agree with most of Colleen’s and Robert’s statements. They made a lot of good points. The issue of emulating pop culture or using movies or tv shows to lead into a sermon is a very important one. Some may say its to reach people, but I really don’t think it is. In my opinion, and I just thought of this not long ago, the real reason why people may be obliged to use pop culture elements in their communication of the gospel is, quite simply they LIKE pop culture. For some its the Simpsons, for others, its Seinfeld. Others, it could be Star Trek or the lives of celebrities. We like these things, therefore its much easier and less brain power, and more fun to use them as examples for sermons.

What’s funny, is that we have hundreds of real life examples, real life people that lived and struggled, in our Bibles to use in sermons. It doesn’t matter if these events occurred a long time ago; the problem is still the same: SIN. Someone who is a teacher and a communicator should be able to explain all that without distracting gimmicks. But studying the Bible, becoming more and more intimate with the Word, allowing the Holy Spirit to open understanding, takes a lot of prayer, effort and time. Much more effort than crafting a 20 min. sermon using the Spiderman movie as an example, which many people can do in their sleep.

I really like the Star Wars movies. But I would be extremely turned-off if a pastor came at me with some sermon trying to use Star Wars characters or themes to bring some Bibical point across to me. The Word of God transcends cultures, generations, musical tastes, everything. We’re talking about the truth of Jesus Christ that was revealed to us before there was media as we know it. His word will stand after all that has come, which it has, and after it goes, which one day it will.

Another element to this conversation is the effect of technology and media on us as a society in general. I am certainly not a proponent of not making use of any media at all, but as Marshall McCluhen (not sure how to spell his surname) states, the medium is the message. I think this statement connects with the points Colleen and Robert made: trying to communicate to Word of God, and all that entails, using a tv show such as the Simpsons as a springboard. All that will have been accomplished is free advertising for the tv show, plain and simple.

I am not a fan of ripping of the latest movie, tv show, etc. either, but for different reasons. As Denise said it is very often a “shortcut” to creativity and shortcuts like that just don’t work.

I am a HUGE fan of bringing the truth of Christ in a way that is engaging, original, relevant and in a way that makes an impact.

One of the key scriptures of Holy Cow Creative is John 12:49

“I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.”

While I don’t do ripoffs of the latest TV shows I do use creative ways to help pastors in how they present the gospel. And folks, it works. It doesn’t just fill the pews, it moves people to action, to change…and that’s what it is all about.

Holycow,
Pragmatism.
It works…therefore it’s the right thing to do.

Did you know that there is a church in CA called the XXX Church? They use a huge 15 foot phallus to draw attention to the booth that they set up at Pornography trade shows.

Do you know how they justify this?

You guessed it…because it works! “We talk to people, we hand out a bible or two, and so our “method” is validated.”

You can’t use the fact that something might “work” once in a while as justification for the act itself. Our justification must come from the word.

So far, there has been no sound justification for using sinful culture to preach the word…not on this thread…

When I heard of that XXX church a year or so ago, I cringed. Can anyone honestly think, I mean let’s get real here, that God is pleased with displaying a 15 foot p***s for all to see? With all the intelligence that God has given us, we can’t think of a better way to talk to people about the problems of pornography? We sink to the level of the world by shocking just for the sake of shocking. I think this is a really good example of taking relevance way, way, way over the edge, if there is an edge.

I wonder though, what is the definition of “it works.” What exactly is working? As a relatively young person of 30, married with a kid on the way, I will say that sometimes people try too hard to “reach” the younger generation to the point where it just seems corny and desperate, even though you may not realize they feel this way. They may never tell you. So what is “it works?” The fact that they come to youth group every week? Their participation in activities? I think what the issue may be here that we want to hold someone’s attention long enough to tell them about the gospel. And our society has a very short attention span. People are distracted. You can’t really talk to people because they are not listening. Now when you insert clips from the popular movie, tv show or event of the hour, guess what? That just adds more distraction. More media for me to take in when my brain is already numb. You must understand that most people don’t realize this is happening. They don’t know they are on overload.

That is something to ponder, because you can’t stop there. What can truly get though all that is distracting us? It is the restorative power of the Holy Spirit. Not the method used to get my attention, which may actually do the opposite of what you intended it to do.

Denise,
good thoughts.

What everyone is forgetting is this: what gives us the right to deviate from what we are commanded?

Preach the gospel to all creatures.

Preach = Proclaim

The gospel = The good news.

We see that Paul tells timothy to preach, teach, exhort, all that he’d been taught.

We see that they read the word, explained it.

So for unbelievers…proclaim the word…

For church…read, explain, exhort.

What other clues do we have as to what we are to do?

I’m just asking….

Robert, I think you’re right. We should always be constantly aware of whether or not our actions are pleasing to God and all that He has commanded us to do. We are His representatives to the world and we must make sure we are worthy of that. We have absolutely no right to deviate from how He tells us to do things. Its really about being humble and the most concerned about what He thinks of something we are doing. And really asking ourselves honestly in prayer, if He is pleased with a particular thing, not assuming its okay because the end seems to justify the means. Sin is powerful. It makes us experts at deceiving ourselves if we’re not very careful.

Another question to ponder is this: whether it’s copied from the world or something completely original, why is there a drive to constantly produce different methods of communicating the gospel to people? That is what advertising agencies do all the time for companies. It’s scary terrain to me and makes me wonder what do we really think about the Good News, because by nature advertising is manipulative and the product is almost never as good as the claims behind it.

Denise,
Exactly.

How we go about evangelizing or preaching the word tells the story of what we think of the power of God’s word.

I have an aquaintance who runs a blog called “A form of Sound Words” and he is the most uncompromising preacher I’ve ever come across.

If you believe that God’s word is powerful and that it is the means that God uses to convert a soul, then you will have no use for video screens, smoke pods, rock bands, TV themed sermons, and other gimmicks.

Just ask rand.

http://www.aformofsoundwords.blogspot.com

wow…lots of replies. I would love to go into depth on all of the different points….cause I love to hear myself type. (haha)

I guess what I would like to say in regards to the whole point of the blog is that YES, Jesus and the Apostles referenced their culture, but they did NOT imitate popular culture.

Also, I went to dictionary.com and looked up the word. Two of them fit our discussion.

1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.

Jesus did address the culture of His time and that is not wrong. It is not even wrong to imitate the culture if the culture is morally and ethically godly. But, when we talk about today’s ‘POPULAR’ culture, I don’t think ANYONE would call it godly.

See…I don’t think the problem, as stated in the blog above, is that so many of today’s churches/ministries are lazy and non-creative and so they steal another’s creativity. The problem…or sin…is that they are stealing/imitating from an UNgodly source!! Sources that in no way acknowledge Christ, and so many times actually outright ridicule Christianity. The people who are imitating them are actually FLATTERING them. (afterall, imitation is the greatest form of flattery) They are laughing with this ungodly popular culture and asking non-believers and immature believers to join in with them instead of showing how God hates divorce, rebellion, drunkenness, adultry, homosexuality, and on and on and on!

(Flotsam, I do agree with you about the maturity of the leadership. And I would say that quite a few of the ‘new’ sorts of churches today are led by very immature men. Men who refuse to grow up and who try to run their church like they did the previous youth group they led. These are men who never out grew their immaturity of thinking that ‘having fun’ should be the number one goal in life, refusing to bring in the seriousness of what it means to be a mature Christian. I Timothy would be a great place to see what I mean.

But, all that to say….several of these immature men are leading large churches. This, I believe, is because they are charismatic in personality.

There are also lots of mature men who have stability, but we would never consider them godly. These are men who lead the Mormon churches and JW’s, etc…

Everything we are taught, even by stable men with large churches and who find favor with other men, should be put against the word of God. Sorry that was off topic, but I just wanted to get that in there. )

Wow – what a heated topic!

@Robert. I admire your passion and that you would stand up for what YOU believe but you do so in a way that is judgmental and arrogant. I am not saying that some your points (and those of Colleen)aren’t valid but the method of your approach to this post is exactly what turns some people away from Christianity.

Foolish arguments that continue to divide the Church and Christians are of no benefit – to our faith or those who do not believe in Christ. Yes, there are churches and church leaders who have gone too far to “market” the Word of God. However, I would say that there is no justification in saying that we cannot use pop culture (or hide from it)to spread the Gospel.

Colleen posted a couple comments about “I will pray for your church that you will learn to rely on the Lord to bring people HE is dealing with and that you will quit relying on the marketing techniques of the world..” Maybe Don IS relying on the Lord and doing what God has called him too. Who are you to question that?

You also stated “I pray that more Christians would forsake the popular clothing trends and hairstyles and nicest cars and biggest houses and help others escape those bondages” also and so on.

Does that mean that Christians who dress in Abercrombie, drive a BMW, or have a Zac Efron haircut are in bondage? I know of Christians who are “pop culture” who live Jesus more than some of the “traditional” people. We can glorify God no matter how we look, dress, or what we live in. Honestly, I would fear coming to your church and being transparent because your comments seem to judge the outside – not the heart. Maybe the comments come from the stand point that YOU have been judged for your appearance.

We should not hide or insulate ourselves from the culture around us. And this comment doesn’t mean to become of the world. We should also not condemn people as it is happening in this post without looking at ourselves first. One thing I have noticed that people who desire to have theological fights and stone throwing competitions would probably be more effective as a true disciple if they would love others unconditionally and agree to disagree on some viewpoints.

There are bigger issues than whether churches are right or wrong for using The Simpson’s for a message point. Besides, if a person comes to know and follow Christ because they visited a church who used a Simpson’s poster, praise God! We should rejoice.

Go out and love your neighbor today like Jesus would and stop nitpicking about YOUR point of view. I know Michael and his heart – it should not be questioned.